tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post1467531023956388487..comments2024-01-27T15:21:25.414-07:00Comments on Call Her Blessed: The LDS (Mormon) Church, Part 2: God and JesusDaiquirihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06040557437955969295noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-29158694905358095292008-09-09T13:08:00.000-06:002008-09-09T13:08:00.000-06:00Atlantis is canceled, anyway. We are big fans of ...Atlantis is canceled, anyway. We are big fans of SG1, at least.<BR/>I'll never think of system lords the same again!Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381554731510359760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-59302339860167822392008-09-08T22:59:00.000-06:002008-09-08T22:59:00.000-06:00Hey Anna,You probably got it from my "local system...Hey Anna,<BR/><BR/>You probably got it from my "local system lord" remark.<BR/><BR/>I've been around the block a couple times with LDS critics. Enough to realize that some of them have taken to derisively calling the LDS view of the cosmos "local system lord cosmology."<BR/><BR/>It was this inaccurate label that I had in mind when I used the term "local system lord." Which is a Stargate term actually.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't call myself a fan exactly, but I do like the original series and watch it on occasion. Hate Atlantis though....Seth R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13769247769345052208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-44099270561169214582008-09-08T22:05:00.000-06:002008-09-08T22:05:00.000-06:00Oh, Seth, I had an observation, a curious thought,...Oh, Seth, I had an observation, a curious thought, that maybe you're a Stargate fan?Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381554731510359760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-80012740721394069262008-09-08T20:56:00.000-06:002008-09-08T20:56:00.000-06:00Thank you for another thought-provoking blog. I s...Thank you for another thought-provoking blog. I still love the fact that we can discuss this so "nicely". I said it before, I'll say it again: Daiquiri, you are a breath of fresh air, friend. Here are some of my thoughts in response to your blog today. First, and I think Anna said this too, the Bible is an LDS source; we believe the Bible to be the word of God. Secondly, I was wondering in your writeup why don't you use cannonized LDS scripture for your discussion of "what the LDS Church teaches"? It is a strawman argument to suggest that if some mormon said it, it must be absolute cannonized mormon doctrine. The Book of Mormon as well as the Bible makes it clear that we believe in One God, composed of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, three personages perfectly unified in purpose. It is also a false construct to setup these two opposing alternatives: Mormon teachings vs. Bible teachings. That very construct is a strawman argument, which I assume you constructed unintentionally, since strawman arguments are inherently deceptive and unfair. Mormon doctrine does not contradict the Bible, it supports the Bible. The Bible is first in our cannon of scripture:<BR/><BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz3rggCnhxQ<BR/><BR/>Here are my prayerful answers to your five questions:<BR/> <BR/>1) I believe in and worship the One God: Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. I recognize that they are three persons, One Godhead.<BR/>2) The Bible is not different than LDS scripture; the Bible IS part of LDS scripture. The Book of Mormon does not demean or diminish the Bible (see the video above).<BR/>3) I believe that you and I are a child of God. He loves you. He is our Father, even the Bible makes that clear. Even though it is common sense that children have at least the remote potential to become like their parents, it is my personal belief that that is not possible in this eternity, and my mortal mind cannot comprehend beyond that. We will never become "equal" with God. We don't know everything about this, so it is misleading to suggest that everything that has ever been said on this topic is settled doctrine. Let's just put a pin in this one for now, and focus on the core things we do know, like The Book of Mormon. <BR/>4) Jesus is God. He is not his Father, but he is deity. When Jesus said "I and the Father are one", he did not mean he and his father were the same person. Remember at Jesus' baptism when a voice from heaven said: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"; Jesus is not his Father. Was Jesus praying to himself in John 17:11 when he prayed that WE (as in you and me) "all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me". That Bible verse makes it clear that the one-ness is "in purpose", not "in substance". So it is not Bible doctrine vs. Mormon doctrine; they are one.<BR/>5) It is a false choice to say LDS God and Jesus vs. Bible God and Jesus. They are not opposed. A more accurate choice could be "Nicene Creed God and Jesus" vs. "LDS/Bible God and Jesus". <BR/><BR/>Daiquiri, I really appreciate your kindness and civility. At the end of the day, we may or may not see eye to eye on everything, but I'm glad we can be friends and good neighbors. There are so many more things that unite us and bring us together than our relatively few differences. For example, I love our country with all my heart, and I'm thankful to be blessed to live in a land of liberty under the banner of the U.S. Constitution. I appreciate you. Take care.ldsneighborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13132886762512250895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-58497628411480704322008-09-08T17:33:00.000-06:002008-09-08T17:33:00.000-06:00I found a really nice article summarizing the E. O...I found a really nice article summarizing the E. Orthodox concept of theosis here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.antiochian.org/node/16916<BR/><BR/>Lots of neat scripture references backing up the notion that the Bible calls on us to partake in God's nature through grace in Christ.<BR/><BR/>However, it is very important to note that the author DOES NOT support Mormonism in any way, shape or form. In fact, he would disagree with me using his article to support Mormon teachings, probably.<BR/><BR/>The key point of difference between E. Orthodox and Mormons is the ontological divide between God and humanity. Orthodox preserve it. Mormons say there isn't one. More on that later probably.<BR/><BR/>To try and clarify for Jason...<BR/><BR/>"I thought that there were a limited number of members in the LDS church who get to be at the highest exalted level in the afterlife."<BR/><BR/>This is incorrect. I think you might be confusing us with the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Celestial Glory is available to all who are willing to accept it.<BR/><BR/>"Who are these other gods? If you don't follow the One God of LDS, are you following one of these other gods instead?"<BR/><BR/>You bring up a common misconception about the idea of plural gods. You assume that if there are multiple gods, they must be in competition with each other. More power for one means less power for the others. More worshipers for one means less for the others.<BR/><BR/>Not so. This is zero sum thinking that does not apply in Heaven.<BR/><BR/>Let me respond with a question.<BR/><BR/>Do you think that by loving Jesus, you love God the Father less?<BR/><BR/>Do you think that by worshiping Jesus, you do not worship the Father as well? And is giving praise to Jesus detracting from praise to the Father?<BR/><BR/>I would answer no, and so would you correct?<BR/><BR/>The truth is that Jesus and the Father are so united that to worship one is to worship the other. There is no competition. No disharmony. There is never an instance of Jesus "overruling" one of God's commandments, or vis versa.<BR/><BR/>If you do not consider the Father and the Son to be in competition with each other, why do you assume that the many gods of Mormonism would be? Why can they too not be in perfect harmony?<BR/><BR/>There is but One God for Mormons. One way in the universe. There are no other ways. We are not polytheists.Seth R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13769247769345052208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-13366133406133250382008-09-08T16:56:00.000-06:002008-09-08T16:56:00.000-06:00ok, now I'm confused.The LDS believe that there ar...ok, now I'm confused.<BR/><BR/>The LDS believe that there are many gods but that they picked out the One God who is the right one to worship so the other ones only get lower case status? Who are these other gods? If you don't follow the One God of LDS, are you following one of these other gods instead? Are these other gods the men who were awesome enough here on earth as Mormons that they get to be gods when they die thus part of the Mormon god pantheon/heirarchy? I thought that there were a limited number of members in the LDS church who get to be at the highest exalted level in the afterlife. If someone who is living now beats out someone who has already attained that level in the afterlife, does that god get demoted? Seems very competitive to me. I'm not excited to participate in the "I'm a better Christian Olympics".<BR/><BR/>If I'm reading Seth's comments on theosis correctly, he is confirming that some followers become gods: "The Mormon idea of deification is remarkably similar (although E. Orthodoxy maintains the ontological divide between God and man that Mormonism collapses)."<BR/><BR/>What is the purpose of deification in the Mormon church?<BR/><BR/>Looking forward to some clarifications.<BR/><BR/>Cheers!<BR/>JasonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-3877879850892364742008-09-08T16:34:00.000-06:002008-09-08T16:34:00.000-06:00Thanks.Well, like a lot of bloggers, I have a bit ...Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Well, like a lot of bloggers, I have a bit of OCD, so don't let me talk your ear off.Seth R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13769247769345052208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-66800438974076582232008-09-08T15:09:00.000-06:002008-09-08T15:09:00.000-06:00Hey Seth -Wow! First, thank you for backing me up...Hey Seth -<BR/><BR/>Wow! First, thank you for backing me up a bit regarding my "attitude" toward this whole thing. I appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>Second. Wow! Have I said that already? Thank you so much for taking the time (and it must have been a lot of time unless you type about 800 words a minute) to comment here. I appreciate your knowledge and ability to articulate your beliefs.<BR/><BR/>Third. It's gonna take me a while to work through all that you said, and might not get to some of your points until a later post. Be patient with me, please :)<BR/><BR/>DaiquiriDaiquirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06040557437955969295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-28474016004394153622008-09-08T12:44:00.000-06:002008-09-08T12:44:00.000-06:00Oh, keep your shirt on GW.This is actually a fair ...Oh, keep your shirt on GW.<BR/><BR/>This is actually a fair enough summary. And I don't detect any mean-spiritedness in this post. So there's no need to be questioning anyone's honesty.<BR/><BR/>But keep in mind Daiquiri, that we Mormons may not be as far off the beaten path as you think. Let's go over your summary of Mormon beliefs:<BR/><BR/>1. God has a physical body<BR/><BR/>True. But so does the God of traditional Christianity. Jesus most certainly had a body while ministering throughout the Jewish countryside. He was resurrected with a perfected body and took it with him into heaven.<BR/><BR/>Jesus is "God" for traditional Christians. Therefore, you also believe God has a physical body, at least in some sense.<BR/><BR/>2. God used to be a man, but has progressed to being a god<BR/><BR/>I should note that the modern LDS Church prefers to emphasize how we can become like God rather than how God may have once been like us. Opinions differ here.<BR/><BR/>But that said, I don't see much point in trying to evade the issue. Our Mormon Church authorities preached this idea. For me, that's a good enough reason to address it, and defend it if need be.<BR/><BR/>I would once again point out that traditional Christians also believe that "God became man" in the person of Jesus Christ. So it's not a completely outrageous idea.<BR/><BR/>3. There are other gods besides the LDS God of this planet (or universe - unclear here).<BR/><BR/>I would prefer the word "universe" to "planet." Scriptures in the Pearl of Great Price (part of the Mormon canon) make it clear that God's creations are infinite and limitless - "worlds without end." So it is simply incorrect to paint the Mormon God the Father as some "local system lord" with just one or a few planets to govern. We believe in an infinite God, not a limited one.<BR/><BR/>As to whether there are other "gods"... There are. But keep in mind that we always designate these beings in the lower-case. We worship no god but One God personified in the person of God the Father, The Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. We do not worship these other beings. Neither does the existence of such other beings detract from God the Father.<BR/><BR/>4. Jesus is a separate being from God. Jesus is God's literal spirit child. (I'm a little unclear on this one because there is also evidence that the LDS church teaches that Jesus and God are one being). From conversations with LDS members, I believe the teaching is that Jesus and God are "one in purpose", not literally one being.<BR/><BR/>The Trinity is a tricky subject, and one that lay Christians regularly screw up. So discussing this is hard. But I'll give it a shot.<BR/><BR/>St. Augustine gave perhaps the most clear explanation of the Trinity in four propositions:<BR/><BR/>Four propositions:<BR/><BR/>1. God is one substance<BR/>2. The Father is God<BR/>3. The Son is God<BR/>4. The Father is not the Son<BR/><BR/>The problem is, all four of those propositions cannot logically be true. You can pick any three of them and have a logically coherent statement. But try to add all four, and you have problems.<BR/><BR/>Let's give it a try.<BR/><BR/>Combine 1, 2, and 3<BR/><BR/>This is modalism. The idea that God is one entity that simply wears different hats when performing different tasks. Just like I am sometimes a lawyer, sometimes a father, and sometimes a blogger.<BR/><BR/>Traditional Christianity denounces modalism as a heresy. However, many lay Christians nonetheless fall into it when they try to figure out what the Trinity means.<BR/><BR/>1, 3, and 4 and 1, 2, and 4 have also been heresies the traditional Christian Church has dealt with, but they aren't really relevant to the dispute with Mormonism, so I'll skip them.<BR/><BR/>Now let's take 2, 3, and 4.<BR/><BR/>Now we have Tri-theism. Three separate and distinct Gods. Traditional Christian theology rejects this as well, since it does too much violence to Old Testament declarations of monotheism.<BR/><BR/>Many Mormons are tri-theists when you get to the bottom of what they actually believe (so are many lay traditional Christians, but anyway...). But I think this is an incorrect read of Mormon scripture. The Book of Mormon has, on occasion been accused of being almost modalist (an incorrect accusation, I think). But due to Joseph Smith's plain teaching on the separateness of the Father and the Son, tri-theism is probably more popular among lay Mormons.<BR/><BR/>This is probably a mistaken position on the part of Mormons because they haven't done the legwork to figure out what their own Book of Mormon scriptures (and the Old Testament) really demand.<BR/><BR/>The Mormon God has to be "One God." It is required by our scriptures. Tri-theism with 3 independent beings working toward the same shared goal doesn't quite get us there.<BR/><BR/>What some Mormon scholars have proposed as a solution is "Social Trinitarianism." If you want a Wikipedia entry explaining the concept, here it is:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Trinity<BR/><BR/>Basically, the idea is that the Unity of the Trinity that makes them all One God consists in a transcendent loving relationship. Basically, they are so close in this relationship, that they literally indwell within each other in love. The technical theological term is "perichoresis" - a relationship of such unity that the Father, Son, and Spirit can be said to inhabit each other's minds.<BR/><BR/>So it's more than just a shared purpose or goal. It is an intimate relationship that binds the individuals together such that to know the mind of one, is to know the mind of the other. This is what Jesus meant when he said that anyone who had seen him had seen the Father.<BR/><BR/>This indwelling, or perichoresis, is supposed to be mirrored in the Mormon ideal of marriage - but that's another topic.<BR/><BR/>5. Jesus came to atone for humanity's sin, so that we can (a)rise from the grave and (b)have the opportunity to perfect ourselves and achieve an exalted state.<BR/><BR/>Correct. But this idea is also not unprecedented in traditional Christian thought. Look up the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of theosis sometime. The Mormon idea of deification is remarkably similar (although E. Orthodoxy maintains the ontological divide between God and man that Mormonism collapses).<BR/><BR/>There are quite a few scriptures in the New Testament that talk about how we partake in the divine nature through grace and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some verses even call us children of God, so it's not unprecedented.<BR/><BR/>6. The Holy Ghost is a third and separate being from the Father and the Son. The Father and Son have physical bodies, but the Holy Ghost is spirit.<BR/><BR/>True. See my remarks above about Social Trinitarianism and perichoresis.<BR/><BR/>7. The Holy Ghost dwells in a believer. Based on a person's state of mind or behavior choices, the Holy Ghost might leave a person's presence.<BR/><BR/>True. Mormons believe that God will not force Himself upon us, but that we retain a free choice of whether to accept or reject Him. So it is with the Holy Ghost. This should be distinguished from the Mormon concept of the "Light of Christ/God." This "Light" is given to all - in and out of the LDS faith. And it can move anyone. But the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" - the right to have the constant companionship of this being - can only be had upon condition of not driving it away and rejecting it.<BR/><BR/>8. God created humans so that we can also "progress" and become "exalted"...so that we can become gods.<BR/><BR/>See my above remarks on "theosis." This is not a new concept.<BR/><BR/>Hope that helps.<BR/><BR/>I do not dispute that Mormons are different than traditional Christianity. Possibly as different from traditional Christianity as early Christianity was from Judaism. But not quite so different as some of our opponents paint us. We are not polytheists. And like early Christians and the Old Testament, we do not consider ourselves in conflict with the Holy Bible.<BR/><BR/>Best wishes.Seth R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13769247769345052208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-30504851629507247582008-09-08T12:16:00.000-06:002008-09-08T12:16:00.000-06:00I see nothing contradictory btwn the bible and the...I see nothing contradictory btwn the bible and the other lds scriptures. In fact, I can find scriptures in the bible that point out that they are indeed 3 separate beings... but I'm sure you could do that too if you were honestly seeking the truth.<BR/><BR/>You also missed an important point. It's not just "believing" in Jesus Christ that saves you and gives you the Holy Spirit. One must also be baptized by someone with the proper authority (i.e. priesthood). The priesthood has been restored on the earth thru the prophet Joseph Smith.<BR/><BR/>It looks like this link explains it well: http://www.mormonwiki.com/Jesus_Christ<BR/><BR/>I hope you continue to investigate and pray about these things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3648926369091231553.post-25276092532413678072008-09-08T10:00:00.000-06:002008-09-08T10:00:00.000-06:00Good morning, Daiquiri!The Bible isn't really a no...Good morning, Daiquiri!<BR/>The Bible isn't really a non-LDS source, you know? They have four books of scripture.<BR/>http://inchristibelieve.blogspot.com/2008/09/god-and-jesus-one-and-same.htmlAnnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381554731510359760noreply@blogger.com